Note: Anyone who has been raped is the owner of that experience, and can downplay or joke or mock or disparage or present it in absolutely any way that he or she wants. This post is not aimed at that person.
Want more women in any endeavor dominated by men? Stop defending rapists. Stop:
- denying that rape culture exists
- making rape jokes or humorous rape allusions
- telling women they are irrational to be afraid of stranger rape or to let that irrational rear direct their behavior
- saying that rape isn’t as bad as murder
- one-upping women’s conversations about how the rape culture affects them with statistics about prison rape
- suggesting that 1 in 6 women in the United States being raped in her lifetime is not that bad of a statistic
- writing pretend math with variables to represent the likelihood of being raped and the likelihood of being killed afterward, to show how close to 0 the outcome is
- imagining there’s an epidemic of false rape accusations that hurts men
- claiming that there is any kind of “gray area” between consent and non-consent
- blaming victims
- getting huffy about being called a “potential rapist” and equating linking to the blog post “Schrodinger’s Rapist” to Nazi behavior by calling it online feminism’s “Godwin’s Law”
Stop defending rapists.
Fun Fact: Whenever you engage in any of the aforementioned behaviors, you are defending rapists against women!
Why on earth would any woman want to align herself with a group of rapist defenders? Do you understand why perpetuating the rape culture within skepticism keeps women away? Do you have any idea the message it sends? The next part of this post will get complicated, so bear with me, but pay attention and think about what you are reading, and if you are confused ask for clarification before arguing. I might not be accurately expressing my thoughts.
Rape is not about sex. It is about power.
Rape is a way for men to demonstrate to women that yes, indeed, they are the sex class* expected to be available to men at all times. It’s what they are for. Brains are nice if you got ‘em, but really… men have sexual needs, and they need to fulfill those needs because it’s their nature, and the powers that be have arranged it so that women will be made available to them. Sure, some women may have enough political agency to avoid having their bodies coopted (in person or in images) for the purpose of gratifying men’s sexual urges, but even they aren’t safe from being reminded–via rape, by some man–that their desire for privacy is of less value than a man’s right to assert his political position over them. It’s been a tool of oppression employed for millennia by men against women that devalues women as human beings. Want to show a conquered people that they’ve really, truly been conquered? Cart off their material goods and rape their women to compromise their usefulness as breeders of the next generation. This works as an insult to men because women are infrastructure, not full participants of the population. Women as infrastructure is the idea that justifies honor killings, and it’s what drives in a lesser extent the view of some skeptics that more women would be beneficial to skepticism because it would make it easier for them to get laid.
*I’ll ask you to look up two posts for more detailed discussions on this idea by more experienced bloggers who have thought through this matter with more insight: “A bit of lighthearted fun” by Twisty and “How not to attract feminist allies” by skeptifem. I would be happy to discuss why I agree with them.
I am not equating “getting laid” with honor killings. Neither am I making it up that many men want more women at skeptical business meetings because it’s too much trouble for them to meet women in “real life” (and who chastise women who object being sexualized in professional settings because those women are not properly sympathetic to poor awkward men who have a hard time getting laid). In both points of view, women are considered infrastructure, not people. They are objects to obtain for reasons that benefit men.
When you defend rape (see again the list above), you support the existence of a sex class and perpetuate the idea that women are there to serve men. You may not realize that you are supporting the existence of a sex class or that you are defending rape, because that is an inherent aspect of the rape culture through which you move. It looks normal to you. If the idea of women as a sex class abhors you, and you feel outrage that someone should try to label you a “rape defender,” review the list of behaviors above. Are you doing those things? You probably have done some of them out of habit–lots of people have. Don’t spend a lot of time beating yourself up over past behaviors now, though. Spend the bulk of your time figuring out how you are going to change, and then immediately stop doing those behaviors. Because rape defenders are disgusting, and women who object to being relegated to the sex class are not going to hang around and enable them–even if they are skeptical women who agree with your skeptical goals.
You are at a crossroads here. You can take a lot of offense at what I am saying and write me off, or you can recoil in horror at the extent to which rape culture has permeated your thinking and continues to harm half of the world’s population, and stop defending rape. You can stop being disgusting.
Thanks for the link, I will keep up with this blog in the future and put it in my sidebar if I keep liking what I see.
You know even female conference attendees who don’t spend a lot of time thinking about rape culture or the threat of sexual assault are still going to feel marginalized and bored when the male perspective is made the default at these conferences. Or when the men at the conference are more interested in getting into our pants than hearing our perspectives (we can usually tell; you laugh too hard at our jokes, for instance, or mishear every other thing we say, or nervously look around for what other dudes might be looking to move in us…we’ve been seeing these cues since we were about 12). Or when it turns out the majority of self-proclaimed skeptics in the movement are so full of shit about how skeptical they are they’re not even questioning institutionalized gender roles.
Funny you mention it–always trying to get into women’s pants at events is part of tomorrow’s post! You’ll have to drop by and see. Thank you so much for visiting in the first place, and for taking the time to comment.
Bro, that’s all your belief. We may not share it.
What’s all whose belief, Anonymous? Who are you talking to?
What if you are skeptical of “rape culture theory”?
First you need to read up on what “rape culture theory” is. Then you need to examine the evidence supporting it, of which there is plenty published. And if you don’t agree with the evidence, you need to provide evidence of your own that refutes it. That’s what you do if you are skeptical of anything.
Actually i have already read the evidence. Do you know the origin of rape culture? It was originally coined in a documentary called rape culture about black men in a prison who were getting raped and formed an organization to stop rape in prison. After it was released many people interpreted the movie as rapists talking about rape. But only 1 of the men were actually convicted rapist.
The way rape culture is talked about now seems more about paranoia than anything concrete. I have not seen any evidence that “rape culture” has a consistent meaning or is able to be rationally determined if a culture becomes a “rape culture”. For instance there are many crimes that can cause fear. Why is “rape culture” more significant than “murder culture”.?
If you insist that feminism is always rational i might remind you about the sokal hoax. The idea that feminism or womans studies is a rational or scientific endeavor is actually controversal subject since the ideas of feminism and the studies they conduct are frequently suspect and not conducted with in a way that would hold up to peer review if it were come from another discipline.
The idea that skeptics should be associated with the kind of feminism that uses such loosely defined terms as “rape culture” scares me.
This is not a rape culture blog. If you want to debate rape culture, find a rape culture blog. Otherwise, if you just want to reserve the right to make rape jokes within the skeptical community, say so. When the conversation comes up about why so few women are around, take responsibility for your part of it. If the idea of skepticism that supports women who speak out against rape scares you, maybe you should avoid those skeptical communities that are trying to make women feel more welcome.
I address whether or not feminism is supposed to be rational here: #24 Don’t dismiss feminism as “unscientific”. Preview: It’s not.
I will dispute feminism when it isn’t scientific and i will will call it science when i see it is being done in a way that is scientific. Some feminism does pass that threshold.
All i ask is that if you are going to use the label of skeptic i want you to try to be skeptical.
Is that too much to ask?
Also rape culture blogs will not engage these questions. Its another reason I am skeptical of “rape culture”. The silencing of critics that is endemic in feminist blogs. Even quite a few feminists agree that is far too common.
I will say i am fine with you trying to get women to be skeptics i am fine with you helping people at change their behavior to encourage participation. That is a good thing. I just think it is possible to do those things whilst maintaining a skeptical outlook.
OK, I’ll engage this time.
I don’t know what kind of cockamamie definition of “rape culture” you scrounged up to argue against, but the definition everyone else uses–particularly on the rape culture blogs–is this:
1. Rape victims are not believed.
2. Rape victims are blamed.
3. Rapists get away with it more than 90 percent of the time.
These are objective observations about life in a rape culture society. If you are trying to discuss a convoluted, unusual version of rape culture on the rape culture blogs, I’m not surprised that they won’t engage with you. What would be the point? And of course people are more paranoid about rape than other violent attacks; it’s a justiceless crime. And if you are denying these basic facts that are not controversial, at least don’t dress it up as “skepticism.” Admit there’s probably some other reason for this behavior. I’ll leave it to you to suss it out.
It’s interesting but not really pertinent that the term “rape culture” was coined for men. Men who are raped are not believed and are blamed, and their rapists get away with it. I’m not sure why you even brought it up, except as some sort of deflection.
First there is the sociology definition from
http://www.blackwellreference.com/public/tocnode?id=g9781405124331_yr2011_chunk_g978140512433124_ss1-19
“Rape culture is a concept of unknown origin and of uncertain definition; yet it has made its way into everyday vocabulary and is assumed to be commonly understood. The award-winning documentary film Rape Culture made by Margaret Lazarus in 1975 takes credit for first defining the concept. The film’s narration relies heavily on jargon such as “rapism” and “phallocentric society” and is more illustrative than definitive in dealing with rape as depicted in movies, music, and other forms of entertainment.”
Notice the words uncertain definition. I have also seen differing definitions which says male victims are part of rape culture or not part of rape culture.
The whole culture is defined by a label that is “rape culture” or its identified as a sub culture with the larger culture.
“Men who are raped are not believed and are blamed, and their rapists get away with it. I’m not sure why you even brought it up, except as some sort of lame deflection.”
Because some people use a definition that specifically excludes male victims. And use a “men can stop rape” explanation which frankly when read by male victims is considered victim blaming in itself.
“1. Rape victims are not believed.
2. Rape victims are blamed.
3. Rapists get away with it more than 90 percent of the time.”
1. isn’t true. I have never seen evidence Compared to other crimes there is no evidence that it is believed or not believed in any different way.
2. Other crimes victims are also blamed.
3. Other crimes actually don’t have much better or worse conviction rate. A lot of the time people use the attrition rate for rape and compare it to the conviction rate of other crimes which will give a distorted view. By using these stats its actually encourages women to not report rape. ‘
Notice that some feminist likes to trumpet how bad women have it. What is interesting is that they often don’t exclude the same stat for men as a comparison.
Go talk about rape culture on rape culture blogs. Stop making rape jokes if you want more women actively participating in skepticism. There’s nothing else to say here.
?
I have not made any rape jokes ever? That would be abhorrent.
What did you think this post you were commenting on was about? It’s about not making rape jokes.
Glad to hear it.
I agree.
“[W]omen as infrastructure” – that is a brilliant way of putting it!
Who cares about insulting bridges and roads?
I really enjoy your writing.
i read with concernyour conversationwith leta. The way you accuse him/her of making jokes about rape and supporting rape culture just becuase he /she brought up some points. He/she was merely engaging in discussion, some exchange of ideas. Do you need help? is there any way any one can reach you? help you? please..let us know
Yeah, not buying the “Karen accused leta of making rape jokes” thing. Her original post was about just that (or about NOT doing just that), so she just brought it back to the original topic.
Also, “Stop: denying that rape culture exists; …telling women they are irrational…; saying that rape isn’t as bad as murder…”
Sooo…
Thanks for this post, Karen. A few weeks ago I first plucked up the courage to tell a now-ex-friend – who, in a discussion, was adamant to find little ‘conditions’ here and there that would let him avoid thinking of himself as capable of raping someone – that if he did ever rape somebody or “maybe” rape somebody, he could be sure that I would never be okay with him again.
Also, a few nights ago, a friend of a friend made a horrible and graphic rape joke on a Facebook thread, and I at first left it, but then decided to spell out for him why that contributes to the horror that a person who has been raped goes through. Two other women took offense at first because I pointed out that they hadn’t said anything, but then all three of us confessed that we usually didn’t say anything because the outcome was always so unpleasant, and so we were always scared to.
Of course, in both of these situations the outcome was unpleasant, the first man becoming furious and telling me that I “was making him feel like he was my rape victim” with what I was saying, and the second scoffing at my lengthy explanation because “I was acting like I know him, and he DOES know what rape victims go through”. He then made worse jokes, including about how he would rape one of the other two women if I didn’t stop criticising him, and so I should stop for her sake.
Hmm. Maybe I should “get some help” for my “irrational” argumentative behaviour…?
I find the above piece interesting Miss (the Author). Particularly? I find it enlightening how you (the author) have structured & worded your argument & whilst I disagree with it in some areas? I agree in others & only think you’re Completely wrong? In just the one – All of which I’ll explain in due course Miss.
Anyway to begin? I found it very interesting that you have decided to Assert that men should say NOTHING about false rape claims without backing up Why you think that; I say this since in my country at least (The UK) The merest Mention of such an allegation as the mention of the Word Rape in connection to a particular man? Can utterly DESTROY that man – his name in the community, his reputation, his job, his career, the Lot & I Know of at least Two cases where men have been PROVEN as innocent but their names & reputations have been utterly Destroyed by the merest accusation hurled by a vengeful woman & in one case? The man was battered by her angry relatives on some pathetic little revenge mission over a Rape that didn’t HAPPEN & was PROVEN not to have done to within an inch of his life eventually needing a new identity & to move abroad & start afresh with nothing because of it.
And you tell me that False Rape Claims are not an epidemic? Maybe not yet but they Are a problem & in this country at least (the UK) a Growing one at that; Yet still, I sense you would deny That as well by the looks of things would you? Don’t make me F*cking laugh – if you’re Going To say All men Are potental Rapists…….End of? Then fine but equally? You’ll HAVE to accept that conversly? ALL women are potential FALSE Rape Claim Fabricators – Equally end of. Again? If you Want Proof? Look up the names Kirsty Sowden & Ched Evans in the UK – The former? Is a woman who made Just such a claim, eventually admitted doing so when it fell apart under investigation of her lies & was sent to jail for having done this; She did this BTW? After she had willingly engaging in sexual intercourse with someone & Then? Feeling ashamed of cheating on her BF, inventing a story that got Two men arrested & their lives etc destroyed & then? Only Got 14 months for it – In the UK as the world over? Such women are treated unduly leniently when in my view? If Rape is to be prosecuted to the Fullest extent of the law every time & Always given the gravity it deserves? Then I think She Should have got a couple of Years at least if Rape claims are to retain their integrity & False ones by other women to be discredited & discouraged – But? At least she got Some Jail time I guess; In the US ‘justice’ system? She’d not have got even That would she & the merest mention of the ‘R’ word re’ a man? Would have seen him do jail time whether he was innocent or not from what I’ve read on such cases – Thank God for Our system of Law I say on reading that as a Man in the UK.
As to Ched Evans? He is a mildly famous soccer player here who Was indeed convicted of Rape but heres the interesting, puzzling & indeed the ‘Grey Area’ part or at least the part that shines a light on what you apparently think Can’t happen but damn well DOES here; That is as follows; Whilst Ched was convicted of rape & rightly jailed for it? He was convicted as part of a case whereby he AND another man Both had sexual relations with the woman under Identical circumstances yet the other man? Was found NOT guilty whilst Ched Was convicted from precisely the Same situation; Now then I ask – How do you work that out & how is it clear that the allegation was Not spurious or indeed part of a ‘Grey Area’? You see? I think this PROVES it’s Not So easy when you look at it like that is it? And I’m sorry but if this case does Nothing else? It destroys beyond repair your stupid argument against ‘shades of grey’? Indeed? I think The case demonstrates just How wrong you are & comprehensively dismantles your argument on that no? Since If there are NO Grey areas or shades? What Else would you call finding One man Guilty & another Innocent in precisely the SAME circumstances? Or to put it in short? How can the woman have been raped by one man but consented to another being sexually involved with her when she was in such an awful state of drunkeness she could give No effetive consent full stop – Surely either Both are guilty? Or neither – Which Is it under your all-encompassing ‘black or white’ view – You don’t know & you’ve No answer at all to that have you? Nor will you ever have – The case has caused an absolute storm over here BTW & even now that same question is being asked in UK legal circles & has prob’ done untold damages to chances of future rape convictions not least because it’s unleashed a firestorm of hate & a campaign Against the woman in question all Over the internet here with her name being printed in defiance of the law & her character being questioned due to the dubious circumstances the case happened in & her word not so much doubted as taken to Pieces & facing a sustained barrage of hate online – what do you think future women in such situations will think if They are now raped? And all because our law believes as You do that there are No grey areas – Oh yes there are……………….
Now whilst I agree, rape is horrible & awful for victims both female AND male to go through & yes men ARE raped & by women as Well as men? False accusations & grey areas do exist. Yet again in an interesting slant of our FEMALE dominated Law here in the UK which despite the US international prestige & reputation for justice? Puts the US rape laws pretty much to shame & Far in the shade? There is No definition for Male rape (as in it happening to a Man) but there Is one for females as in women Being raped – It even describes How it is done to women By men in our statute book but for Men suffering that fate as a result of Women raping them or indeed other men? Not a flicker – Now I wonder why That might be Miss? In the end? I’m just writing all this to point out to the articles author therefore? It’s Very Far from as clear cut as you make out in Favour of women this area of the law regarding the commital of rape & whatever side of the Atlantic you might be found on? I think it always Will be like that……………
IMO? The Law in the US & UK even if perfect will NEVER stop rape entirely just as while there’s ALWAYS a human race? We’ll NEVER stop war – We can only reduce it as Far as we possibly can, educate & put deterrants in place whilst hoping the strict rules & laws thus established are enough to cut it to the minimum if not stop it entirely. This is of course such laws & rules IMO needing to be set alongside a programme of decent education to discuss & demonise the crime as it should be to youngsters in school so they grow up to abhor it in both countries with the consequent result that All our youngsters then become well-balanced young adults themselves who know just How bad Rape can be & hate it & discourage it as we are now trying to do for the next generation after Them & so on. In short? All we can do in the end by law, rules & education is discourage & reduce it as far as possible & Two of the reasons rape will never be entirely gone are again? Indeed as you listed above Miss – they are?
That there will always indeed be men (even educated ones) often misreading signs & feeling women are ‘up for it/asking for it’ when in fact? they’re ONLY dressing for themselves to go out/have a good time/dance at a bar or drink with their friends etc & the other one being lonely men who DON’T talk to women well or ‘pull/attract’ women easily thinking it is their accepted social RIGHT to take sexual favours from women when it is anything But that & is frowned upon & rightly so & punished by law. Both these factors? Will always lead to some degree of risk of rape occuring & again? Only education & the law & rules will combat that if not destroy it but you can’t control people’s feelings & if those feelings are overwhelmingly strong in the unbalanced few? They will end up HAVING to be punished as like it or not? They probably WILL end up raping or trying to rape someone & the law in both countries is currently So ambiguous regarding what Is rape as such & how often/when permission is needed? That ‘grey areas’ Will always exist & again? Such people May try to take advantage of it. The best we can do is reduce the risk to it’s minimum & educate it out of people – I hope it will one day destroy it for the sake of women but being a man & knowing what men are like? I suspect it will not disappear entirely……….
I say this before anyone launches at me because when you talk of what Leads people to commit these crimes? you are talking of feelings & urges deep Within a person & controlling them? Is about as realistic as trying to Stop people sleeping together with the opposite sex full stop? Such a venture is obviously wrong as it will never, CAN never succeed entirely & so with the feelings & urges that lead to awful crimes like rape – They can be contained, barriered, minimised but never Entirely destroyed & thus the risk will ALWAYS remain in some respect. In short regarding rape? I fear We will NEVER wipe it out as sadly it is in man’s nature – We can only hope to REeducate & thus eradicate it largely that way but somewhere out there? There will always be ONE man who’s seething at everyone else happy with woman partners while he has No-one or a man who thinks the woman he’s got his eye on is “asking for it” & all we can do to Stop Them from striking entirely on their own or thinking “Sod/f*ck the law – I’ll do it anyway”? Is use a sufficiently strong deterrant & hope That encourages the women thus affected or attacked by such individuals to come forward, report it & let Justice take it’s course & punish them for their crimes. Maybe then women will feel safer in going out & being happy in public in such a better policed, well educated future society as I outline here but unfortunately again given the way the world is right now & the mess a good number of societies & governments are in not to mention the amount of Wars going on where Rape always happens & can be stopped as easily as a Missile with a pea-shooter? I fear that society is a long way off becoming a reality or even close to it as yet………….
Anyway IMO? The article above whilst incorrect re’ certain factors & in places & FAR from complete in certain other areas? Is as good a place as any to start that reducation of which I speak that would be the bedrock of any such widespread change of values as would minimise or almost remove the risk of rape & whilst the piece’s intentions are laudable – CAN it have the desired effects on those who read it? Well it did on me hence this essay in response but on that one in the Long run? – Only time will tell, I think; Eventually – sooner or later? Time WILL tell………………….
@SimonW… You spent 2000 words (I copied and pasted and counted) ranting about something that is not in dialogue with what I wrote. First you said Uh Huh There Is A False Rape Claim Epidemic Because Two Guys in the UK Were Hurt by a False Claim. And then you explain why rape is inevitable. And then you say my article, while laudable, does not achieve the desired effect. Which is true. Because I said you are being disgusting if you defend rape, and you did (it’s just part of being human!) without realizing that you are being disgusting. And all without providing any statistics, too!
I do find, however, your claim that the laws in the UK are female-dominated pretty laughable. So if that was your desired effect of your post, well… Time WILL tell.
2,149 words before you ask Miss; And yes I counted this time; Quite a feat I suppose for me to end up using MORE words for my second post but there you go – Always WAS to descriptive…………..
I’m not approving your 2,149-word follow-up comment, or your 645-word follow-up comment with five links. If you feel so passionately about this subject–which is completely off-topic to my post–find your own platform and publish them there.
How is it off-topic? You asked for stats & details of this crime taking place? So I gave you them maybe in a different area but still instances of the same thing. You asked &? I gave you. As to ‘my own platform’? How do I do that – how DO you publish stuff? Very new to online or publishing anyway & if you can point me to HOW to do it? Will do JUST that – Thank you Miss & hope you keep well.
BTW? I find it Very interesting Miss HOW you ask me for details & stats to back Up what I said about rape being nearly inevitable (& you did NOT specify Where or what areas of life I meant) & when I do JUST that? You claim variously regarding my responses that their either “off-topic” or “rants” – Why’s that I wonder? You seem to have a Real problem accepting Any constructive criticism Miss – never mind dissections of your work – Why’s that? Seriously though?
You asked me for stats to back up what I say & My arguments? And then when I give you them along with cogent, precise reasoned arguments as to WHY I said what I said? You won’t publish them – Give No reason why but just WON’T publish them. Talk about moving the goalposts & babies out with the bathwater. Did you Read what I wrote at all Karen? Or just get angry at it on priniciple that it disagress with you? Would be interested to hear your answer Miss. OK whatever else happens – Keep Well & hope you can LEARN to see the flaws in your arguments one day as clearly? I can’t show you them. Bye for now Miss……………..
NB Again? I would appreciate it if you tell me HOW to publish or find my Own platform to & then? I will do JUST that as YOU have done here. Thanks again & Bye.
One last thing for you KarenX since you seem unable to accept either counter-arguments or dissections that go RIGHT to the heart of what you say & in some cases give sensible cogent answers to questions you yourself pose (How to REDUCE Rape? Through Education & deterrant – Is it inevitable? Sadly yes in some cases as I think I proved conclusively? It’s far, FAR worse than even You thought Miss).
Anyway since you won’t accept counter arguments never mind evidence? I will instead ask you this one question that goes to the HEART Of what you say & believe evidently from this piece & see if you answer it or not? With the pieces I typed that you sadly did Not publish but which even now are both safely saved on my hard drive AND published (links & stats included) elsewhere for ALL to read? Effectively Proving that rape in the military alone is Far, Far worse than was first thought amongst both troops of the same side And with women of enemy nations & with the problem of rape in domestic life & Non-military settings as bad as ever due to the sheer number of Unreported never mind prosecuted cases in both the US & UK to name but two? Do you honestly Expect to see it eradicated in your lifetime & if so How?
Again? I submit that since it’s inevitablity & occurence is Far worse than even I first thought before looking at those & other figures? How can it Not be seen as inevitable & IF we are to change this depressing stat’ (Yes it DOES depress me as a man to think my fellows are capable of this but you prob’ Won’t believe me will you?) How do you think we should do it because I humbly submit that HOWever we go about it? I doubt either myself or your grandchildrens grandchildren never mind Us ourselves will be around when that day finally dawns that the word Rape & what it describes are Finally & irrevocably confined to the history books alone.
To summarise? Yes I think that this WILL happen one day (Rape being eradicated) but it is a very, Very long time away as yet & I’d be interested to know if your ideas for beginning the baby steps at the start of this 1000 mile journey are similar to mine? As I said? I THINK for now? We will HAVE to rely on education, deterrance & the Law (imperfect though it is) but further? Since you asked me for stats & figures (which I provided but you refused to print for whatever reason)? I take it you studied them & on doing so? Have you concluded as I have? That the problem is far, far worse than we ever thought before? Whatever we do now to stop it? Will be only removing the tip from the iceberg – going further? Will probably be the work of future generations long after ours is gone………………..
Anyway I wonder what your views On MY view & the figures I provided are Miss? Do you agree that the problem is far, far worse than first thought? HOW do you think we can combat it & do you think ANYthing done now will PROVE effective in the long-run? Whilst I’ll be interested in your answers? I probably Won’t write again as I’ve found somewhere else to what was it you said? prove to be my “own platform” for my “passionately held views” where those debating & reading from me appreciate me & they have indeed published what I said.
I will go now anyway & Whilst I will read your answers here with interest? I doubt I’ll waste anymore of either your publishing space here or my writing time (which being partially disabled? Is rather limited) both of which are equally precious to ourselves with my replies as we’ll only end up arguing again – I think we’ll have to agree to disagree Karenx for the time being so I bid you adieu Good Lady & hope you find a way of reconiciling those views you disagree with alongside your own someday & the realisation that disagreeing with you? Is not heresy – It’s just being human as indeed is agreeing with you which I will again say? I DO in many respects – just not certain other views you hold which I must say? I found rather easy to disprove. Anyway? I will go now & hope you find whatever it is that you seek in your life to fulfil you Milady. Have a good life Karen – Wherever you might go Miss – Until next we joust………………………….
NB ONE of those links I provided you for the unpublished follow up reply with Five links? Was for a site called “My Duty to Speak” run by & FOR exclusively those affected by Rape in the military (both men AND women) Now if you claim that rape is disgusting & you abhor it? Why Not put up links to sites like that dedicated to eradicating rape in the military? Surely you Agree with that sort of site no? And some of the stories on it were truly horrific. Just thought you’d post That link if none of the others was all as it is a Very informative & eye-opening site to those like us seeking to learn about & inform ourselves of this subject.